Bobcat claims another Jeep

[Steinberg]

I came across an abandoned XJ pulled off the trail a little ways down the trail from the fire circle. A friend of the owner showed up soon after and had the keys so I took a look at it and looks like it sucked a large amount of water as the airfilter was soaked and engine wouldn't budge. No towhooks either of course. Stupid jeepers.

So I'm thinking maybe this trail could use a gatekeeper obstacle at the fire circle. It's something that we could propose to the rangers and see what they think. Opinions?

[VerticalTRX]

I def. like the idea of a gate keeper obstacle, but I somehow doubt that the rangers would go for it. Plus, I could see a bypass being made around it fairly easily. I think a good 3' vertical rock ledge, (slightly off-camber just for good measures) would be sufficient to keep out the stock jeep'ies.

[CLynn85]

Why are ya'll proposing a gatekeeper obstacle? There's no reason to deny the stock guys from having a little fun as well, as long as they take the bypasses and stay out of the deep water.

The trail's just as much fun in a stock truck and have run it in one several times.

[Steinberg]

There's no problem having stock trucks on the trail. The problem is inexperienced drivers who think the proper way to approach a mudhole is at 25mph. The gatekeeper should be passable by a stock truck, but should require enough driver skill to scare off the idiots who head out there alone in bone stock xterras and xjs with no towhooks and get themselves into trouble.

I really think there's a good chance at getting approval from the rangers. I've talked with one of them about building stuff on the bike trails and he was very open to those ideas. If it can reduce the number of abandoned vehicles they have to remove from up there then I bet they'll listen.

Just in the last couple weeks I've come across or been called out for 3 stuck vehicles, one hydrolocked. I know of many trucks that have hydrolocked up there in the 2.5 years I've been here. It's only a matter of time before the rangers decide to just close the trail or fill all the holes in.

[yotacowboy]

Why not just get the rangers to put up a sign at the trailhead that says "Any vehicle left unattended will be removed at the owners expense"? We can charge $200/hr plus additional fees (and any possible fines) for recovery (all revenues go to the Not-For-Profit Sinking Creek 4 Wheel Drive Association to aid in trail maintenance), since the rangers are (apparently) already contacting one or some of us when there's a stuck vehicle...

I think there's gotta be a less involved tactic that we can try before we go blocking the entrance... As much fun as it would be to actually have a new obstacle on bobcat, we all know full well that some group of stock jeep drivin' idiots are gonna undo any gatekeeper-like-thing within a few weeks of putting it in there. Would you rather spend your free time tugging big rocks back into place and blocking bypasses, or make some cash for the club dragging a hydrolocked XJ off the trail, then call up TechTow to get it back to town? I'm sure TechTow wouldn't mind... and the trail remains relatively untouched/unchanged, something the rangers would probably like to see.

If the signs don't work (and we still see stock chero-cars parked on bobcat every weekend), then we ask the rangers for help making some sort of entrance obstacle. In the mean time, it wouldn't take much effort to figure out what sort of obstacle would work, that way we can present a well thought out proposal for a trail modification to the rangers once the time comes.

[Steinberg]

since the rangers are (apparently) already contacting one or some of us when there's a stuck vehicle...

have they? I wasn't saying that the rangers had contacted me. when I've been called out there it was for so-and-so friend of a friend, etc.

I do like your idea clay. Me and Leach had inquired last semester about adopting the trail and fireroad as a club, but I don't think we ever heard back from them. But I know from talking to the rangers though that they were/are looking for a group to adopt the trail, so if we did that we maybe could post a sign saying "Trail adopted by Sinking Creek 4WD Association...Please report disabled vehicles to 540-555-5555". Then when they get stuck they call us and we request a donation to the club for the recovery.

[CLynn85]

I think the biggest downside to putting up an entrance obstacle is the fact that, people with either a, find a way to move it, or b, cut a way around it, the latter would be even more detrimental to us trying to keep the trail open.

I think a few signs for who to call for a recovery, as well as possibly signs at the deep holes stating the danger of the hole and recommending that stock vehicles take the bypasses would also help.

[yotacowboy]

I think the "trail adoption" would be separate from the actual responsibility for removing unattended/disabled vehicles. The initial point of contact should be the rangers, who would then contact one of us for vehicle recovery. or maybe the FS contacts a towing company, who then contacts us to get a disabled vehicle to the fire circle or something, and they take it from there. I don't really like the idea of having one phone number at the trailhead that is directly connected with us. Sure, go ahead and put a FS phone number up there, but not ours. How many times did Kreis get a call friday or saturday night saying "i'm stuck, help!" only to go up there, take a look, and say, "yeah, you're fucked!" though, our web address or some e-mail address that kicks directly to the listserv, would probably be fine. Rather, let the FS rangers stay in the loop as the first point of contact. That way, if one of us goes up there and we see an XJ on street tires buried up to the hood, we call the FS, the FS contacts the PD, then a towing company, and then us if they need to. Its not the fastest way to deal with it, but it keeps everybody who should know whats going on on that trail in the loop. And I'm pretty sure most towing company's around here don't like to drag their trucks through the woods, mostly for fear of busticating an expensive tow truck... but for some strange reason, we do.

This isn't really different from the way things work right now, except for installing the sign at the trailhead, which is cheap and could be seen as "good advertising" for us.

I think one of the biggest problems is that there's no way of letting anybody know that there's a problem up on the trail.

I'm kind of thinking the way to look at this is that the FS are the managers of that trail and that we are a "contractor" in that we have the tools neccessary to aid in minor trail maintenance and vehicle recovery. We don't want to imply that we're usurping the FS's oversight of the trail. We can't assume responsibility for towing, or storage (that'd be a towing company's job). But getting a stuck or diabled vehicle to an easily accesable point on the trail is something we can help with. And I don't think its too much to ask that we may be reimbursed for our time and for any possible damage to our vehicles. We just have to offer a better deal than what a towing company would charge.

[Steinberg]

Slow day at work Clay?

I had toyed with the idea of a "recovery call list" to put on our website, but I think most of the people stuck up there wouldn't even know to look for it. An email address on the sign would work, but internet access is tough to come by on Brush so I figured a phone number would be best. But maybe Mike should chime in and tell just how many calls he did recieve on the weekends...?

I see a couple problems with going through the forest service and tow company like you're saying. First, when you call the blacksburg ranger station (if it's even during business hours), a little old lady will answer the phone and she won't have any idea that the trail you're on even exists. The other thing is that most people would rather leave the vehicle up there and hope that magic fairies will fix it than fork over several hundred dollars to a tow company right away. Also, it seems like a lot of red tape for either the forest service or a tow company to contract out work to an uninsured club of strangers like us. When that jeep got burned up there I offered our help in removing it to the FS, but they got a tow company to remove it instead. I think in their position they can't really authorize us to help, but that's just the impression I get.

On the other hand, people seem very willing to look to us directly for assistance. I don't see a big problem with that, cause it's not like we're going over the FS, we're just going up there to help like we would for each other.

Now I'm not saying we should empower ourselves to remove abandonded vehicles. I'm thinking that if we can make a direct point of contact for help then we can get up there and get the vehicle out with the owner present, before it gets abandoned. If the vehicle has been abandoned then I agree- it should go through the FS first, for the reason that it could be stolen or otherwise involved in a criminal investigation for all we know.

[VerticalTRX]

Why are ya'll proposing a gatekeeper obstacle? There's no reason to deny the stock guys from having a little fun as well, as long as they take the bypasses and stay out of the deep water.

The trail's just as much fun in a stock truck and have run it in one several times.

I do have to admit I've had some fun up there in my basically stock F-250, including rootin' around in every mudhole up there, but I have also seen and heard of lots of idiots in stock vehicles destroying their junk up there, getting stuck, waterlogged, etc.

From what I've gathered many of the people getting stuck in stock vehicles up there really do not know how deep/bad the mud holes are and don't have the sense to get out and check the depth before venturing in. I believe that something as simple as a sign or two by the mudholes stating that they are "roughly 'x-feet' deep, and should not be attempted with a stock vehicle", would cut down on some of the messes that occur up there.

[Steinberg]

One thing to remember about any sign we put up is that there's a very good chance it will get torn down, shot at, burned, etc.

You can hydrolock a truck in a relatively small puddle if you slam into it at ludicrous speed like so many newbies do, and that's what happens half the time up there. Short of building more bypasses, I don't think there's much to be done to keep people from getting into trouble. Even with bypasses, dumbasses will still get into trouble. As much as I feel for anyone who loses a motor up there, I don't know that there's much that can be done to prevent it other than paving the trail. Cause you guys are right- any gatekeeper will be bypassed. I think the best that we can do is just help with recovery when the inevitable happens.

[Steinberg]

UPDATE: The jeep is still up there, but now all the windows are smashed, the tires slashed, and every single panel dented to hell. I told the guy's friend not to leave it up there cause this would happen. Dumbass.

I know- we should put up a sign that says "This trail is not Jeep rated!!!"

I reported it to Montgomery Co. sherrif (didn't have FS number on me) and they didn't seem to care much.

While I was up there I ran into the guy who owns the land down the "other" trail after all the mudholes (and he was riding an atv :shock:). This is the trail that many people accidentally turn down when they miss the left turn running from 460 downward. He was a nice guy, and says he's been living there for about a year, so it may not be the same person as we've thought it was in the past. He'd also heard of sc4wda. Still the same deal though: no trespassing down there, and he'll go after you. He said he gets headlights coming down that way at all hours of the night, and I believe it. Apparently even large trees across the trail, painted orange and anchored into the ground won't keep people out for long. What the fawk.

[Steinberg]

I talked with the FS law enforcement officer today and told him about the jeep up by the fire circle. He had not yet heard about it, but he said he would go check it out and prolly give the owner up to 2 weeks to remove it (a lot of time due to the weather). I offered our help and he said that if the owner hasn't removed it in 2 weeks then he likely may call us, cause even the tow companies that will go up there are very reluctant to. So for now just keep driving around it.

He is concerned about the activities going on up there around the fire circle. The amount of drinking, littering, and abandoned vehicles has had him near the point of simply closing down the area completely. He seemed to think that the local ranger would be very receptive about taking action to deal with the various problems without having to close down the trail. So if we get together some solid plans like what we were discussing recently I think we could arrange a meeting to discuss it all with the local ranger and take some steps towards keeping the trail open.

Also, should anyone feel the need to report activities up there, the ranger station # is 540-552-4641. If it's after hours you can call Montgomery County Sheriff at 540-382-2951 and just tell them it's on natl. forest land and they will contact the FS law enforcement officer at his 24hr number. I'm not asking everyone to rat out anything illegal that happens up there- use your own judgement.

[Hunter J. Smith]

"people getting stuck in stock vehicles up there really do not know how deep/bad the mud holes are and don't have the sense to get out and check the depth before venturing in."

"How many times did Kreis get a call friday or saturday night saying "i'm stuck, help!" only to go up there, take a look, and say, "yeah, you're fucked!"

"we see an XJ on street tires buried up to the hood"

"dragging a hydrolocked XJ off the trail"

"I know of many trucks that have hydrolocked up there in the 2.5 years I've been here."

[Steinberg]

but you shoulda known better!!!