Sinking Creek 4WD Association

theres always the grinder to clean up ugly welds

yea but you cant grind down stuff that you cant weld in the first place

Peter no more talking. No grinders on welds. If its shitty cut it out completely. Practice on scrap till your good enough to not have a shitty weld. Clean your materials good and get tons of practice before doing anyting on a vehicle thats important.

no i was just talking about splatter and shit(i.e. ugly), not welds with bad penetration or anything. you still have to be able to lay a good bead if you expect your piece to be worth anything, i know this leach, but thanks for clarifying!

There is a welding shop in Cburg called HMI. I have dealt with the guy and he knows his stuff. He is good to talk to and get good advice from. He is not pushy and will not try to sell you a welder you dont need. He deals mostly Miller welders. Something about all american parts and easier to find replacement parts and get service so he said. His prices on welders arent the best but not terribly bad either. I believe he gets his stuff from Airgas in Radford another welding/gas supply. He has also owned something like 6 or 7 propane powered trucks mostly Dodges and knows a bit about this to.

VerticalTRX wrote:I beg to differ on that. I've been welding for 11 years now and at one time I was certified in both MIG and Stick welding.

not impressed

VerticalTRX wrote: As far as the weld itself goes, MIG may lay a nicer looking bead, but that’s about it. Full penetration is the mainstay of a strong weld and I feel that 100% penetration is easier to obtain with a stick welder.

You obviously fit into the "penetration is welding" category. No offense to you, but if you think that is THE mainstay and THE issue when welding you've lost most all credibility in my book. Not saying my book is important, but that's where you are in it. That comment puts you in the home-taught, hack, and metallurgical knowledgeless group. Just saying what I think.

VerticalTRX wrote:I run 6011 rods on AC for this reason, I know every weld I make has full penetration.

Haha. No comment.

VerticalTRX wrote:While the 210+ amp MIG machines are capable of getting good penetration, their 110v counterparts often are not (he already established that 210amp MIGs are out of his budget.)

Never would I suggest 110v mig machines. They're for 2 year olds learning to weld on Tonka trucks.. aka toys. I'm trying to explain (in a very tactless way) that if a nice mig is out of his price range he's not ready to buy a real welder and should save coin and not blow half of it on something that puts him in the hack category.

VerticalTRX wrote:I use my AC Stick welder for all my tube work, and while the welds may not look as good as MIG or TIG, they are every bit as strong, stronger in some cases. If you’re a good welder there is nothing 'hack' about using a Stick machine for tube work, or fabrication in general. Any welding process can be 'hack' if done wrong.

Any process can be hack, but planning to do nice tube work and buying a stick welder for the purpose of doing it puts you in that class before you begin. You may want to be hack and that's fine by me cause I could care less. I'm sure you're just the gorilla weld man. Ugly and strong. And if you want to think they're "stronger" than proper mig and tig welds I'll debate you til pigs fly.

VerticalTRX wrote:I guess you would consider oxy/acc welding of sheet metal and aluminum to be hack as well?

of course not and it depends on your project. did you fall off a turnip truck?

VerticalTRX wrote:

You seem to have taken heavy offense to my hack comment and that's fine. "Certified" welders are the least impressive in my book and with all the "certifications" floating around it doesn't mean anything. You don't seem to have a heavy grasp of metallurgy and welding metallurgy and that's fine. I've been a part of tube buggy builds (possibly before you knew this sport existed) with stick welders myself and it turned out well. Was it a bit of hack fab? Hell yes. Was it a nice buggy? Hell yes. Have either of us done any more buggies in the same manner? Hell no.

I'm not saying stick welding is inherently a bad process, but it doesn't lend itself as well to truck fab as other methods. I know you don't agree, but I have an idea as to what you've grown up around and been exposed to and can understand the basis of your views. I came up around a lot of the same. If you do continue to grow in this arena you will eventually see the err of your ways unless you're 100% content with the level you're on. For me, I'm never content. Better is.... well.. better.

slow day at work?

Billet Benny wrote:not impressed
....

It seems as though your and my welding experiences in the past are quite different leading to our different opinions. A large portion of my welding experience has been in the field welding on machinery and equipment, all stick welding of course. I have also done a fair bit of fabrication over the years, however my '79 was the first ground up build that I've done.

I personally would rather spend my money on parts for my truck than buying new, high-zoot tools just cause everyone else has them. I'm using 1920's welding technology and I'm fine with that. I know stick welding works because I've been doing it for years with good results.

As for metallurgy, I admittedly do not know as much as some, but I do know the all the basic metallurgy related to welding. I simply was referring to penetration since that is something that many novice welders overlook. They think if they run a nice looking bead its a good weld.

Label me as hack, I don't care, but don't try to tell me that a certain type of welding process is hack just because it’s not the widely accepted method of doing something. Aside from ease of use explain to me exactly why MIG welding tube is better?

VerticalTRX wrote:It seems as though your and my welding experiences in the past are quite different leading to our different opinions. A large portion of my welding experience has been in the field welding on machinery and equipment, all stick welding of course. I have also done a fair bit of fabrication over the years, however my '79 was the first ground up build that I've done.

You are wrong. Our welding experiences are not different. Mine is just much more extensive. I have done all you mentioned above in the mentioned environments and so much more.

VerticalTRX wrote:I personally would rather spend my money on parts for my truck than buying new, high-zoot tools just cause everyone else has them. I'm using 1920's welding technology and I'm fine with that. I know stick welding works because I've been doing it for years with good results.

You won't find where I said stick welding doesn't work. I never said you had to buy a welder cause everyone else owns it. Reread my post. I said you needed to buy it to have what is a good tool for the particular job and to stay out of the "backyard-hack-fab" category. I have not yet come out and said that's not the category you want to be in, but if you keep pushing I will. However, it's still an individual's own call. You can buy all the truck parts you like, but there's still no excuse in my mind for buying the incorrect tool for the job just because it saves a dollar. I believe in quality tools and quality work. As long as a welder is not over your head with features you don't understand you're not wasting any money by buying the nicest you can afford. A stick machine is the worst of the machines available for this kind of fab work.. It's just not ideal.

VerticalTRX wrote:As for metallurgy, I admittedly do not know as much as some, but I do know the all the basic metallurgy related to welding. I simply was referring to penetration since that is something that many novice welders overlook. They think if they run a nice looking bead its a good weld.

I think novice welders worry too much about "penetration" cause that's the only word they hear related to welding and that's just not right. I doubt you know all the basic welding metallurgy but I'll let it slide.

VerticalTRX wrote:Label me as hack, I don't care, but don't try to tell me that a certain type of welding process is hack just because it’s not the widely accepted method of doing something. Aside from ease of use explain to me exactly why MIG welding tube is better?

Why can't I tell you that? Does it hurt your feelings? I thought you didn't care. I can tell you whatever I want because I say it for a reason. You don't have to like it and I don't expect you to. I know what I know and I will express my opinion when I think it can help others. My opinion is that stick welded tube work on trucks and race cars is hack. I'm still not saying whether it's good or bad, everyone can make up their own mind, I'm just saying it to help lean others in the direction I know is best.

MIG has plenty of advantages over stick welding. Ease of use is a huge factor but mostly in the learning curve. Stick isn't something someone will pick up fast and definitely not fast enough to do consistent out of position work on thinner wall tube. The material size of typical tube gives a huge advantage to MIG over stick in this area. Typically, MIG is much more consistent, reliable, and controllable than stick for this work. It's that simple.

There's other problems beyond all this, but it's simple thought that tells you this process is not designed for this work. Stick holds its own for construction, heavy machinery and stuff like that, but it doesn't kick ass as an in shop welder. Once we get into having to remove slag all the time and wire wheel all stops before you start again and what not you're going to have a lot of extra work to even do it right with that cheap buzz box.

It's not such a matter of which is better or stronger, but which one is more a fit for the job at hand. Stick welding for this is not. THAT'S what makes it hack. Somebody who has bought a mig machine for this work has obviously seen the advantages and made a smart decision because the tool matches the work and cost was not the one deciding factor and they've followed a road that makes sense. Because it fits the work better the person will be much happier down the road.

redtaco00,
Do it right, buy the NICE mig, learn to use it, and you will be MUCH happier down the road. That's my whole point.

Billet Benny wrote:
You redtaco00,
Do it right, buy the NICE mig, learn to use it, and you will be MUCH happier down the road. That's my whole point.

My whole point was that there’s nothing wrong with using a stick welder for general fabrication, including most tube work, and I stand by that statement.

redtaco00,

If you can't afford a nice 210+ amp MIG machine buy a stick welder, and learn to use it. It will make you a better welder and down the road when you do have money for a "nice" MIG welder it will be very easy to learn. Do not buy a 110v MIG, and don't forgo a good stick welder if that’s what you want, just because of some supposed stereotype. I would bet money that there are many more people in the club with stick welders than 210+ amp MIG welders.

I can see that this argument is going nowhere so this will be my last post on this topic. Good luck with your purchase, let us know what you get.
.

I learned stick first, spent about half of my 700+ hours all summer welding, playing around with lincoln's Idealarc 500 and Miller's Big Blue, when I got to play around on mig it was ungodly easy, and beautiful (lincoln 255).

VerticalTRX wrote:My whole point was that there’s nothing wrong with using a stick welder for general fabrication, including most tube work, and I stand by that statement.

My point is that eventually you will graduate to something that is more suited to truck fabrication and sooner is better than later. My statement is there is something wrong with stick welding truck fab because it's the cheapy way out and the worst possible choice for this kind of work. Oxyfuel your tube before you stick weld it. That's even cheaper and imo a much, much better welding process for tube than smaw.

VerticalTRX wrote:redtaco00,

If you can't afford a nice 210+ amp MIG machine buy a stick welder, and learn to use it. It will make you a better welder and down the road when you do have money for a "nice" MIG welder it will be very easy to learn. Do not buy a 110v MIG, and don't forgo a good stick welder if that’s what you want, just because of some supposed stereotype. I would bet money that there are many more people in the club with stick welders than 210+ amp MIG welders.

I can see that this argument is going nowhere so this will be my last post on this topic. Good luck with your purchase, let us know what you get.
.

redtaco00,
so if everyone jumped off a bridge, you should too. don't waste any money on a stick machine and keep saving for a big MIG. You can pick up the process in just a little while with plenty of practice and your work will look much nicer and you won't get so frustrated, especially if you're half as tedious and picky as I am. Look for a used mig too because that's how I got a great deal on mine. I will help you with specifics if you find one you like.

And watch out for that stereotype... Fabricators like me will make fun of you..

i agree with Benny...however i have recently learned benny went to see brokeback mountain in the theaters, so that may increase his status a bit i really wanted to go myself.

Beacon wrote:i agree with Benny...however i have recently learned benny went to see brokeback mountain in the theaters, so that may decrease his status a bit

that's harsh.. but if you were me you'd have gone to see it too.. this i know.

Billet Benny wrote:

Beacon wrote:i agree with Benny...however i have recently learned benny went to see brokeback mountain in the theaters, so that may decrease his status a bit

that's harsh.. but if you were me you'd have gone to see it too.. this i know.

yeah i bet that the movie put you and Kim in a great mood for later that night