Camo TJ
Moderator: Club Officers
- willhf1011
- Posts: 1626
- Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:14 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD/Blacksburg
Re: Camo Tj
I meant specifically your wheel travel, bump, and droop, but if you were using the frequency side of the calculator I'll have to go back and look at it because I was looking at the ride height side. I wouldn't base your numbers on frequency. That was a trend in the industry a few years back that has more or less since been debunked.
I would get the coilovers mounted and then measure your corner weight as seen by the shocks with some mockup springs on. From there determine what you want your ride height to be and order springs accordingly. I wouldn't run too much preload because as a DD your weights will change frequently as you take things in and out of the jeep. If you rely on preload too much for proper ride height (by using overly soft springs) you will see significant changes in ride height every time you adjust the load/weight distribution. The other side of that is you want to run as soft a spring as is reasonable for your application. Your shock valving should do most of the work of slowing your compression movements instead of relying on a stiff spring. Additionally, a softer preloaded spring will give better droop characteristics and a softer ramp up on compression.
If you don't have time to get the shocks mounted before ordering springs, then your current weights are probably close enough, but review the math for ride height and don't sweat frequency.
I would get the coilovers mounted and then measure your corner weight as seen by the shocks with some mockup springs on. From there determine what you want your ride height to be and order springs accordingly. I wouldn't run too much preload because as a DD your weights will change frequently as you take things in and out of the jeep. If you rely on preload too much for proper ride height (by using overly soft springs) you will see significant changes in ride height every time you adjust the load/weight distribution. The other side of that is you want to run as soft a spring as is reasonable for your application. Your shock valving should do most of the work of slowing your compression movements instead of relying on a stiff spring. Additionally, a softer preloaded spring will give better droop characteristics and a softer ramp up on compression.
If you don't have time to get the shocks mounted before ordering springs, then your current weights are probably close enough, but review the math for ride height and don't sweat frequency.
93 YJ Under Construction
- BadAssEddie
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:12 pm
- Location: The Woods
Re: Camo Tj
I think frequency is worth looking at. Without being able to to a full tuned setup, the info it gives you on both sides of the calculator is useful. I think finding a "middle-of-the-road" setup is good. I told him about 0-1 inch of preload to get the ride height adjustability and possibly run slightly lighter springs.
1969 Cadillac Deville 7.7 Big Block
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
- redneckrapunzel
- Posts: 572
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:48 am
Re: Camo Tj
Alright I went back through all the calculations this morning and used ride height as the main factor and not frequency. The output were very similar the front came out with the same spring rates and the rear has the same tender coil but a lighter main coil. The difference in the rear is 200 for ride height vs 250 for frequency.
(Based of ride height)- using the lighter main coil will give me the same ride height everywhere ideally which will be very nice however my worry is that with a combines spring rate of 94lb/in in the rear whenever I load up any decent amount of cargo the rear will squat really bad.
(Based of frequency) - using the 250 lb/in main coil will give me a combined spring rate of 103 which will still squat in the rear when loaded by not as much. Also depending on if I factor in suspension frequency or not the 250 gives me a much better frequency balance front to rear.
Will why wouldn't the suspension frequency matter? From my understanding the frequency can be used to make sure that your rig will ride decently down the road/trail. Which when it comes to a DD rig could be very important because otherwise you could either get a body rolling monster or something that rides like a tank.
(Based of ride height)- using the lighter main coil will give me the same ride height everywhere ideally which will be very nice however my worry is that with a combines spring rate of 94lb/in in the rear whenever I load up any decent amount of cargo the rear will squat really bad.
(Based of frequency) - using the 250 lb/in main coil will give me a combined spring rate of 103 which will still squat in the rear when loaded by not as much. Also depending on if I factor in suspension frequency or not the 250 gives me a much better frequency balance front to rear.
Will why wouldn't the suspension frequency matter? From my understanding the frequency can be used to make sure that your rig will ride decently down the road/trail. Which when it comes to a DD rig could be very important because otherwise you could either get a body rolling monster or something that rides like a tank.
1997 TJ
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
- BadAssEddie
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:12 pm
- Location: The Woods
Re: Camo Tj
The traditional frequency approach that is used for road cars breaks down and isn't as useful/consistent when you get into longer travels and lower frequency like you see in offroad coilovers. People have had really good success in tossing it out the window and running much lighter springs in recent years. That's why Will is saying to just do your math for height and run as light as you can.
But, these people are tuning their valving accordingly and spending a lot of time testing and adjusting. Since you are not doing that (you might later on, but unlikely to be tearing shocks down on your DD regularly to adjust), you should take each result (frequency and ride height) into consideration and find a good middle ground, i.e. what you were saying above cargo capacity versus potential ride quality. You will have to pick and choose.
But, these people are tuning their valving accordingly and spending a lot of time testing and adjusting. Since you are not doing that (you might later on, but unlikely to be tearing shocks down on your DD regularly to adjust), you should take each result (frequency and ride height) into consideration and find a good middle ground, i.e. what you were saying above cargo capacity versus potential ride quality. You will have to pick and choose.
1969 Cadillac Deville 7.7 Big Block
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
- BadAssEddie
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:12 pm
- Location: The Woods
Re: Camo Tj
1969 Cadillac Deville 7.7 Big Block
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
- redneckrapunzel
- Posts: 572
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:48 am
Re: Camo Tj
One option I could do is completely setup my rig for coil overs but leave it to where i can still put coils back into there factory locations. This would allow my rig to still be drive-able while i order coils. And I could also get actual corner weights with the shocks on my rig
1997 TJ
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
- BadAssEddie
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:12 pm
- Location: The Woods
Re: Camo Tj
That sounds kind of ghetto and like a pain if stuff between each setup is in the way. If you mount your Bilsteins at the same angle that your coils are now, you will have the same effective rates. If you want to set it up differently just order a set of setup springs that are close to what you think you'll use and run those for a week or two while your final springs are on the way. You only drive around town so it wouldnt be a big deal and it wouldn't kill you to walk the quarter mile to campus from your houseredneckrapunzel wrote:One option I could do is completely setup my rig for coil overs but leave it to where i can still put coils back into there factory locations. This would allow my rig to still be drive-able while i order coils. And I could also get actual corner weights with the shocks on my rig
1969 Cadillac Deville 7.7 Big Block
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
- redneckrapunzel
- Posts: 572
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:48 am
Re: Camo Tj
yea around town aka 5 hours from home to here
1997 TJ
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
- BadAssEddie
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:12 pm
- Location: The Woods
Re: Camo Tj
Well pick a two week period when you aren't going to go home...
1969 Cadillac Deville 7.7 Big Block
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
- redneckrapunzel
- Posts: 572
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:48 am
Re: Camo Tj
yea it was just an option cause the front i will be able to run the coilovers at the same angle as the coils are set up now but in the rear space is a little bit tight and that might not work so well.
btw reading this thread has made me doubt every bit of knowledge i thought i had about proper coil rates
From that thread it sounds like I should run pretty light coils compared to what i thought and then run 3 - 4 inches of preload
btw reading this thread has made me doubt every bit of knowledge i thought i had about proper coil rates
From that thread it sounds like I should run pretty light coils compared to what i thought and then run 3 - 4 inches of preload
1997 TJ
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
- redneckrapunzel
- Posts: 572
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:48 am
Re: Camo Tj
i dont believe i have the proper equipment to do everything i need here, aka big enough welder in our garage here
1997 TJ
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
- BadAssEddie
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:12 pm
- Location: The Woods
Re: Camo Tj
Yeah it'll do that to you.redneckrapunzel wrote:yea it was just an option cause the front i will be able to run the coilovers at the same angle as the coils are set up now but in the rear space is a little bit tight and that might not work so well.
btw reading this thread has made me doubt every bit of knowledge i thought i had about proper coil rates
From that thread it sounds like I should run pretty light coils compared to what i thought and then run 3 - 4 inches of preload
Remember what Will said, lots of preload is for consistent weight rigs. Too light and you'll be loosey goosey. Good tuning can help with body roll but I wouldn't count on that. You also aren't planning to run a sway bar, AFAIK. That's what I was saying about taking all information into account.
1969 Cadillac Deville 7.7 Big Block
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
- BadAssEddie
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:12 pm
- Location: The Woods
Re: Camo Tj
So are you going to put it off until the summer? I wouldn't try to get in done in a week over Spring Break.redneckrapunzel wrote:i dont believe i have the proper equipment to do everything i need here, aka big enough welder in our garage here
1969 Cadillac Deville 7.7 Big Block
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
1978 Ford F-150 6.4 FE
1993 Ford Bronco 5.8 Windsor
1994 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
2016 Ford F-250 6.7 Powerstroke
- redneckrapunzel
- Posts: 572
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:48 am
Re: Camo Tj
The problem is this is the only time i can work all day and afford to not have my jeep drive-able for a decent period of time. So for me it makes since to try and get it done over this break even if i have to deal with some interesting driving characteristics for a little bit. I feel like i can easily get all of the fab work done and get the coilovers mounted in a week it just comes down to having the right coil rates when its all said and done.
1997 TJ
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
04 superduty
10 civic #nolifelikethelowlife
"If you'd stop flirting with the and worked, you'd be almost done." - alec
^ very true ^
- willhf1011
- Posts: 1626
- Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:14 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD/Blacksburg
Re: Camo Tj
I would not run 3-4" of preload, that would be way too much for a varying weight rig. Around an inch would be reasonable. Too much more than that and you will lose the ability to maintain reasonable ride height with additional weight.
I don't think you should concern yourself with frequency too much unless you can answer all of the following questions easily. All of these (and more if we want to turn this into a tech thread) have a dramatic effect on what you will actually feel/perceive as the "frequency of the suspension" The spring is only one aspect.
-What is your valving in the coilovers currently? Are they the same? If not, balancing your frequency f/r means very little if they are being damped at different rates.
-You are running different reservoirs on them f/r, that will have an effect on how they work in relation to one another as well.
-Unless you know specifically what angles the shocks will be mounted at, the wheel frequency (what you will actually feel) can change significantly and the balance f/r would subsequently be off
-Play with throwing additional simulated weight in the rig (adjust corner weights) and see what it does to you frequency, your rear corner weights will change much more than your fronts
-As for body roll, do you know your roll centers f/r? Are they the same? If not, I would be less concerned about the frequency affecting that.
I just feel that without taking into consideration all of the variables, frequency really doesn't do you much good. I speak from experience with a rig that rides far worse than it should because when I did my springs frequency was the flavor of the month and I based my rates off of a frequency that was supposedly for a "balanced, occasional quick runs, trail rig"
Just some food for thought
I don't think you should concern yourself with frequency too much unless you can answer all of the following questions easily. All of these (and more if we want to turn this into a tech thread) have a dramatic effect on what you will actually feel/perceive as the "frequency of the suspension" The spring is only one aspect.
-What is your valving in the coilovers currently? Are they the same? If not, balancing your frequency f/r means very little if they are being damped at different rates.
-You are running different reservoirs on them f/r, that will have an effect on how they work in relation to one another as well.
-Unless you know specifically what angles the shocks will be mounted at, the wheel frequency (what you will actually feel) can change significantly and the balance f/r would subsequently be off
-Play with throwing additional simulated weight in the rig (adjust corner weights) and see what it does to you frequency, your rear corner weights will change much more than your fronts
-As for body roll, do you know your roll centers f/r? Are they the same? If not, I would be less concerned about the frequency affecting that.
I just feel that without taking into consideration all of the variables, frequency really doesn't do you much good. I speak from experience with a rig that rides far worse than it should because when I did my springs frequency was the flavor of the month and I based my rates off of a frequency that was supposedly for a "balanced, occasional quick runs, trail rig"
Just some food for thought
93 YJ Under Construction