In Response to Mike's ListServe

[TerryD]

I began looking around on pirate4x4 and searching some of Virginia's public sites to see what kind of work they are up to around here. I found a few things around New Castle but this entry was interesting!

From:
http://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/forest-level.php?110808




- Recreation management
On Hold
N/A
David Hrdlicka
540-552-4641
dhrdlicka@fs.fed.us
UNIT - New River Valley Ranger District. STATE - Virginia. COUNTY - Montgomery. Near Pandapas Pond.
Location:
N/A
Poverty Creek Trail Additions
Addition of non-motorized trails (hiking, biking and equestrian use) within the Poverty Creek/Brush Mountain trail
system
Description:
CE

[Arya Ebrahimi]

What's interesting about it? What's the big deal about adding horse trails?

Not trying to call you out, just trying to figure out what you're getting at...

[TerryD]

i just find it interesting that they always want to add horse, bike and hiking trails and run the 4wd community off. i grew up hearing stories of people in the horse community riding on gov't property and most of them being so drunk they couldn't hang onto the horse! i just think its a little unfair is all. they close our trails, cut out the big rocks, fill in the dips and give it to horses! that was the main point i guess. i understand its not what this means, but i think it will eventually come to this.

[yotacowboy]

i just find it interesting that they always want to add horse, bike and hiking trails and run the 4wd community off. i grew up hearing stories of people in the horse community riding on gov't property and most of them being so drunk they couldn't hang onto the horse! i just think its a little unfair is all. they close our trails, cut out the big rocks, fill in the dips and give it to horses! that was the main point i guess. i understand its not what this means, but i think it will eventually come to this.

equestrians (generally, as a lobbying body) have MUCH, MUCH more money than the 4WD community. They are the most 'well funded' of any outdoor recreational activity.

This is what it boils down to, and I'm completely serious. I've dealt with trail rights issues before, but from the perspective of a mountain biker as part of M.O.R.E., and without a doubt the equestrians (despite the fact that they completely DESTROY trails and wreak havoc on infrastructure) are the most powerful group of users. And they bitch the most. They are rich, they are whiney, and they are used to getting their way. If they don't, they'll either buy you out, or sue the pants off you.

[Stinson]

its all the F'ing greenies. Makes me sick all the thousands of acres in VA that are for "our use" yet you can only access it on foot. There is plenty of land that no one can even access cause its just way to far to even hike.

As far as trails go, its the same shit for all motorized vehicles. They all get a bad rap. Its always the bad apples that ruin it for everyone else. People see off roaders as drunk rednecks tearin shit up.

I ride/race dirt bikes off road and run into the same crap. Most of my riding has been in PA where we ride single track (just wide enough for a bike, like the mountain bike trails on brush) that has been there since the 70's. Now the mountain bikers go in and mark the trails with GPS and sell maps. Next thing you know we are kicked out and the moutain bikers get a trails system that dirt bikers made and maintained. Its the same thing on Brush. You think MTB'ers made all those trails up and down that mountain??? Hell know, that was dirt bike trails first. Now MTB/horse/foot only. Oh and by the way has anyone ever seen how much damage horses do to trails???

10-15 years from now the top access road on brush will prolly be a paved trail like the huckleberry. They will prolly even conect the two.

The sad thing is that we want the same thing as the greenies. We want our forests to stay. We both love the outdoors/nature. We just enjoy it two different ways. Greenies get so wraped up in a little trail erosion, when there are hundreds of acres of woods/habitat being desroyed every day for parking lots/roads/houses/stores etc.

Hate to say it, but we are going to loose the battle. More and more people (yuppies) are living in or around cities, and want to go to parks and not see off roaders. There is more of them than there are of us and it only gets worse every day. My kids prolly wont know what its like to go wheeling or ride dirt bikes (with out traveling hours away).

[TerryD]

i dont believe there are more of them than there is of us. after seeing all this i just think they are louder than we are! i'm trying to think of ways to make us louder!!! there is a delicate balance of power in this, and we need to figure out how to lean it in our direction or we'll lose it all! another thing i see is that people jump on the green wagon without even researching where that wagon is headed. "oh, good for the enviroment! I'M IN" and they wind up sitting at home with nothing to do because they in-advertently helped close all the trails, forests, and campgrounds they once frequented! i'm going to start e-mailing the USDA and maybe a few to the senators and gov of VA to see what we can do to get louder in this..... i've grown up enjoying these trails, not only the vehicle trails, but walking, hiking, biking, ect. and while i'm focused on the vehicle aspect of it, i still see biking and hiking trails losing out in this battle eventually. vehicles are just the first step.

[MtnToys]

I ride/race dirt bikes off road and run into the same crap. Most of my riding has been in PA where we ride single track (just wide enough for a bike, like the mountain bike trails on brush) that has been there since the 70's. Now the mountain bikers go in and mark the trails with GPS and sell maps. Next thing you know we are kicked out and the moutain bikers get a trails system that dirt bikers made and maintained. Its the same thing on Brush. You think MTB'ers made all those trails up and down that mountain??? Hell know, that was dirt bike trails first. Now MTB/horse/foot only. Oh and by the way has anyone ever seen how much damage horses do to trails???

In PA it’s a little different (for the worse). They are closing the trails to motorized vehicles AND bikes / horses in all the state game lands and some sate forests. There is a bunch of land turning into state game lands on top of what’s all ready there. I know of two awesome trail systems that were closed locally to where I lived in pa. There was two other local trial systems that are pretty much doomed. These were places where I used to wheel, dirt bike and mountain bike in high school (just depended on what mode of transportation was operable at the time). They banned motorized vehicles on one of these doomed trail systems a few years go and now it’s pretty much certain the trails will be closed to bikes/horse in a year or so.

Some of the closers really make you wonder about some of the people in power. In Michaux state forest (PA) they band dirt bikes and trucks but they still allow ATVs and snow mobiles . Its like they’re slowly chiseling away trail usage.